Curse

R_Frost · Jul 20, 2010, 05:22 PM // 17:22

[QUOTE=Ugh;5200089 Maybe help out some beast mastery skills.[/QUOTE]

i agree with this.

rangers dont need more AoE. thats the problem with the last few updates to the game, the powercreep updates with AoE changes now has everyone wanting more.

Barrage has its place in the game. there has always been one chage ive wanted to see to the skill. current version, All your preparations are removed. Shoot arrows at target foe and up to 6 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +5...17...20 damage if they hit.

change i would like to see, All your preparations are removed after next attack. if a preparation was removed recharge increased to 10 seconds. Shoot arrows at target foe and up to 6 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +5...17...20 damage if they hit.

Mintha Syl · Jul 20, 2010, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

How 'bout decreasing the recharge on Melandru's Assault? Or it's E-cost? It's not like the +17 Nearby-AoE is so spectacular

I'd be all for it.
IMHO, the main difference between barrage and melandru's, apart the choice between bm and high marks, is barrage is highly spammable, while melandru is not. At equal attribute points they do about the same damage, and melandru's has a larger range, but apart from the problem mentioned above, you don't boost pet damage a lot with buffs like you do on the ranger itself, and what makes barrage useful is also the damage added from splinter etc. It's true barrage is an elite and meladru's is not, but...

Skyy High · Jul 20, 2010, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuna Matsumarui

exactly, and that's why rangers don't have one and are nearly useless in pve

the only AoE we got is barrage, volley and traps.

Incendiary Arrows is quite nice for small-scale AoE.

The fact of the matter is that the ranger can buff their AoE attacks with a ton of armor-ignoring buffs. Eles can't. Barrage on its own does pretty weak damage, but if you buff it correctly you can do AoE damage that no ele can match. During the Battle for Lion's Arch, my splinter barrager was taking off almost half of the health of the groups of Jade Cloaks with one Barrage. Show me an ele that could do that, and I'll agree that rangers need better AoE options. Until then: you need to learn to play the class better.

R_Frost: clever, I like it.

Steps_Descending · Jul 20, 2010, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

change i would like to see, All your preparations are removed after next attack. if a preparation was removed recharge increased to 10 seconds. Shoot arrows at target foe and up to 6 foes adjacent to your target. These arrows strike for +5...17...20 damage if they hit.

I like the idea, but I have doubt concerning the effectiveness of the change. 1 shot with preraration would basically mean I big AoE before recharging. Or spamming without prep.
Point 1 : is the superior AoE that valuable? I don't think so. 10 sec feels long for a combat cooldown, especially considering most prep are 12 sec + 2sec casting time.
POint 2 : Preparations are unremovable, completely unremovable.

I think that would give a not-worth-enough option to a skill while people (that means I) would probably prefer to use more barage. I think. It might be just about tweaking the increased recharge to make it flow more in combat.

Amy Awien · Jul 20, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

... the ranger can buff their AoE attacks with a ton of armor-ignoring buffs. Eles can't. ...

They don't need to, Rangers have to use half of their bar to achieve the effect an Ele gets with one skill, of their own profession - and they get the effect in a wider area.

Splinter Weapon works as well on a sword or wand as on a bow with Barrage, the damage coming from it is not an accomplishment of the AoE capabilities of Ranger skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Frost

... the powercreep updates with AoE changes now has everyone wanting more.

The problem is that for efficiency in PvE the only thing that matters is damage.

R_Frost · Jul 20, 2010, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

I like the idea, but I have doubt concerning the effectiveness of the change. 1 shot with preraration would basically mean I big AoE before recharging. Or spamming without prep.
Point 1 : is the superior AoE that valuable? I don't think so. 10 sec feels long for a combat cooldown, especially considering most prep are 12 sec + 2sec casting time.
POint 2 : Preparations are unremovable, completely unremovable.

I think that would give a not-worth-enough option to a skill while people (that means I) would probably prefer to use more barage. I think. It might be just about tweaking the increased recharge to make it flow more in combat.

the 10 second was just a random number, im sure if it was a considered change to keep it from being an overpowered the recharge would have to be in the 5-15 second range or an increase in recharges on the preparations. think of the damage possibilities with barrage being able to be used with ignite arrow and someone tosses splinter weapon on you too. that would be one heck of an opening shot on a mob if they were balled up nicely. thats where the recharge on barrage would be needed to keep it from being over powered if you got a one shot use with a preparation. or another way would be a disable of the prep for a certain amount of time if used with barrage.

Lanier · Jul 20, 2010, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The problem is that for efficiency in PvE the only thing that matters is damage.

Powercreep created this problem and randomly buffing skills that are not underpowered is only going to make the problem you mention worse.

X Dr Pepper X · Jul 21, 2010, 12:44 AM // 00:44

I'm all for it, but it should be modest. Rangers have no real bow AoE outside of IA, Barrage, Volley, and Ignite arrows.

IA was OP in pvp and they increased recharge and decreased burning, which nullified its use in PvE. Make a PvE version of original IA.

A skill that allows you to hit 2 different targets for +10 damage each with one arrow each isn't op. Make it adjacent. 10 sec recharge. 10 energy.

A skill that fires 3 arrows in a cone in front of you and can only hit 1 target each. No additional damage.

An arrow where it passes through all enemies in a straight line. +15 dmg to all foes hit.

Make volley not remove preparations, reduce additional damage or remove additional damage entirely, limit to 3 arrows to adjacent foes.

There don't need to be intricate, elite versions of AoE dmg skills with bows. Just the option for 5 or so decent non elite bow skills and 2-4 real nice elites like IA, Barrage.

Ugh · Jul 21, 2010, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

A skill that allows you to hit 2 different targets for +10 damage each with one arrow each isn't op. Make it adjacent. 10 sec recharge. 10 energy.

Oh right, Splinter Shot should turn into Splinter Shot. I assume that's what you were referring to?

Quote:

A skill that fires 3 arrows in a cone in front of you and can only hit 1 target each. No additional damage.

I don't think this would work with GW1's physics.

The Drunkard · Jul 21, 2010, 02:04 AM // 02:04

If you want rangers to start being used in elite areas, trying to turn up AoE damage will not work. Unless Anet buffs rangers to a point where they do more damage than MoP/HB, rangers will never get into groups that need damage.

I think the best thing Anet can do for rangers now is to make natural rituals useful. Having the spirits affect both friend and foe really gimps the team as to what skills to bring, and usually harms the team instead. Rituals need to either buff the party by synergizing with certain types of damage, or cripple the foe. Traps should also have a much wider AoE so rangers can actually put them on their bar.

X Dr Pepper X · Jul 21, 2010, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Oh right, Splinter Shot should turn into Splinter Shot. I assume that's what you were referring to?

I don't think this would work with GW1's physics.

Yep. Glad you caught onto that, but the splinter shot would be toned down to adjacent range and low damage for balance.

I wanna see mediocre normal bow attack skills be put into strategies involving the actual use of wilderness survival in pve. Crazy. I know.

Making preparations useful in pve like Ignite Arrows, Melandru's Arrows, and Glass Arrows. Spread degen in AoE and do small damage.

And making the damage benefits from bow attacks adjacent to eachother instead of nearby ensures it is less effective in PvP than PvE.

Jk Arrow · Jul 21, 2010, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The problem is that for efficiency in PvE the only thing that matters is damage.

I would agree that most times this is true, however...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nubarus

Also the Great Dwarf Weapon + Barrage is actually pretty funny to watch.

Sometimes complete shutdown can help a team deal more damage by not worrying much about defense. GDW is an extremely OP skill when used with Barrage. The only reason it isn't used as much is because you can't cast on yourself when HH'ing so many don't even know about the skill.

Tenebrae · Jul 21, 2010, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I think the best thing Anet can do for rangers now is to make natural rituals useful. Having the spirits affect both friend and foe really gimps the team as to what skills to bring, and usually harms the team instead. Rituals need to either buff the party by synergizing with certain types of damage, or cripple the foe. Traps should also have a much wider AoE so rangers can actually put them on their bar.

Thats the real problem. Wilderness Survival in PvE lacks utility and damage ..... and BMastery gives you skills for an stupid and slow attacking Pet. 4 Att lines and 2 of them are bad in PvE .

Bow AoE should come from preparations and most preparations dont deal AoE.

reaper with no name · Jul 21, 2010, 01:31 PM // 13:31

The purpose of Barrage is not that it's super duper AoE, but that it's a decent ranged physical AoE. I can't really think of much else that does what Barrage does, and for that reason it doesn't really need to be changed (unless you wanted to stop Rits from abusing it for their splinter barrage or something).

Amy Awien · Jul 21, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Powercreep created this problem and randomly buffing skills that are not underpowered is only going to make the problem you mention worse.

The changes in mechanics that defined Hard Mode created it, if you want to call those powercreep, that's fine. But to keep classes balanced you'll either have to undo the powercreep of some classes or buff others to match.

Barrage is weak, extending it's area of effect from adjacent to nearby would not introduce powercreep, but might make bringing the skill worthwhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The purpose of Barrage is not that it's super duper AoE, but that it's a decent ranged physical AoE.

The purpose of AoE damage skills is to deal damage in an area of effect (rather then one foe) and Barrage isn't good at doing so. There's a wide range of spells that are ranged and have an adjacent or wider area of effect. Compared to them Barrage is not even decent at the moment; you need to dedicate your build, that of your team and your tactics around it to make it work decently.

X Dr Pepper X · Jul 21, 2010, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quit whining about how you think Barrage sucks. Its an insanely good skill.

The only quips I have about Barrage are that in HM monsters have too much armor- especially Warriors, and that splinter Barrage is conditional on adjacent foes. The adjacent foes is a balancing point for barrage, and I recognize and respect that.

No whining about a skill that costs 5 energy, can be spammed for 1s recharge, deals unconditional +20 damage to up to 7 adjacent foes. And that's without mentioning other stuff like Splinter Weapon, GDW, Conjure Fire/Lightning/Earth/Frost.

You get plenty of good AoE with barrage and nice options for party support as well. You roll interrupts with it, bring I Am the Strongest, Save Yourselves, Summon Spirit Vampirism and Favorable winds, EBSoH. Bring a pet.

TL;DR. Barrage is good. Options out of Barrage are poor.

Amy Awien · Jul 21, 2010, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

Quit whining about how you think Barrage sucks. Its an insanely good skill.

When large groups of foes ball up to eat their daily dose of splinters then it is a fantastic skill ....

That doesn't happen though, which is why it doesn't see much use on my bar. Splinter weapon is overrated for the same reason.

Quote:

No whining about a skill that costs 5 energy, can be spammed for 1s recharge, deals unconditional +20 damage to up to 7 adjacent foes.

The cycle is two seconds, other non-ranger Elite AoE's generally don't have limitations on the amount of foes hit and they tend to come with more damage without needing to be buffed by half a dozen other skills.

Quote:

And that's without mentioning other stuff like Splinter Weapon, GDW, Conjure Fire/Lightning/Earth/Frost.
... You roll interrupts with it, bring I Am the Strongest, Save Yourselves, Summon Spirit Vampirism and Favorable winds, EBSoH. Bring a pet.

You can't have it all, GDW requires another human player to cast it on you (unless you bring a barrage hero), SY a warrior secondary, the conjures a /E secondary and splinter weapon a /Rt secondary or Rt/ hero.

There are at least three different secondaries in all those support skills, not to mention that those skills work just as well without Barrage.

(PS: Summon Spirit and Vampirism is a rediculous waste of skill slots. Even a pet >> those).

Interrupts don't mix with Barrage, you can use either, but not both.

Anyway, you're just confirming what I said earlier, you need to dedicate many more skill-slots to make barrage worthwhile.

reaper with no name · Jul 21, 2010, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The changes in mechanics that defined Hard Mode created it, if you want to call those powercreep, that's fine. But to keep classes balanced you'll either have to undo the powercreep of some classes or buff others to match.

Barrage is weak, extending it's area of effect from adjacent to nearby would not introduce powercreep, but might make bringing the skill worthwhile.

The purpose of AoE damage skills is to deal damage in an area of effect (rather then one foe) and Barrage isn't good at doing so. There's a wide range of spells that are ranged and have an adjacent or wider area of effect. Compared to them Barrage is not even decent at the moment; you need to dedicate your build, that of your team and your tactics around it to make it work decently.

No, no, you're looking at it all wrong. It's not that your team has to design itself around Barrage, but rather that the skill becomes effective when used as AoE in a physical heavy party that utilizes physical buffs such as Orders. That is the purpose of the skill, and you don't need a lot of slots to do that.

Lanier · Jul 21, 2010, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

But to keep classes balanced you'll either have to undo the powercreep of some classes or buff others to match.

This is true. That is why we need more nerfs.

X Dr Pepper X · Jul 22, 2010, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Anyway, you're just confirming what I said earlier, you need to dedicate many more skill-slots to make barrage worthwhile.

Splinter Weapon on a hero. Barrage on me. Oh look, i have 7 skill slots left.

Your picky semantic technicalities are a subtle gesture that you can't make an effective counterargument and are averting the point. Weak trolling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

No, no, you're looking at it all wrong. It's not that your team has to design itself around Barrage, but rather that the skill becomes effective when used as AoE in a physical heavy party that utilizes physical buffs such as Orders. That is the purpose of the skill, and you don't need a lot of slots to do that.

This.